Facebook Debate

Below is a debate that I have been engaged on Facebook, because of my blog about Obama and his symbol. It is always interesting to me the blogs people choose to call out, but none-the-less here it is. The only area I did not reply to on his comment is his telling me that I have to call out McCain as well. Actually, I do not, as it is my personal blog and my thoughts, but as I did state below I will at some point write on him. If I choose all positive for him and negative for Obama, then that will be my choice.

I am not using his name, I will just delineate between comments by using “him” and “me(Alan).”
Please add your thoughts and comments to this debate. Maybe I am missing something or wrong somewhere. I am always willing to learn with good evidence But, do not get into name calling, as I will not post the comment then. You can attack the premise and the argument, but please do not attack the person. You can attack me, that is fine, but not the other person.

(Him) Dude...McCain's plane doesn't have the flag on the tail either...There is a picture of it on one of the links you posted. I think if you are going to call out Obama and question his motives, than you have to call out McCain too. Also, with the lapel pin thing you mentioned in the beginning, I saw an interview with a Senator who was bashing Obama for not wearing one, while he himself was not wearing one on his jacket either! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5LZI50dMbM&feature=relatedCan we please stop writing about stupid nonsense and actually focus on issues...That would be great.PS: I hope India is great

(Me) First, did you actually read the articles connected. Second, anyone is able to write stupid nonsense in a free market. One can choose not to read it though. McCain's plane does have the flag on it, http://embeds.blogs.foxnews.com/2008/07/04/tour-of-the-mccain-campaign-plane/, watch the whole video and you will see it on the plane. It is not on the tail.The point added with all my other blogs is that Obama is not to be trusted as our President and continues to make goofy decisions.Just as the Bible demonstrates time and again, symbolism means a lot. We create symbols for everything. Whether selling things, Golden Arches, to the book of Revelation describing things. So, to say that symbols are not important in society and our lives is in plain language ignorance.As far as the lapel pin, did you listen to the whole thing, as I think the Representative made good points. It is not about the wearing, but the refusal when asked.It is iteresting that a historian would compain about looking at symbols when history and a lot of major atrociities all had symbols tied to it, as do many major humanitarian groups on the other end, but in the end symbols say something, especially when one takes the time to redesign one for himself.

(Him) Yes I read the articles...And I'm not sure what the correct term would be, but its not free market...And lastly, every news article I've read says that congressman and women started wearing the flag lapel pins on 9/12 as a sign of support for 9/11 families and American troops...Is it a trend or something? Did they wear them after the Challenger blew up? Did they wear them after the Oklahoma City bombing? Did they wear them during Somalia? Why is this such an issue now? Obama said that he doesn’t wear it because he felt it became a substitute for his patriotism. That’s fine with me, considering I think what we are doing in the Middle East and around the world is wrong...It’s just like flying the flag on the 4th of July...Everyone does it, and then it goes back in the garage until next year...Or in this case until the next domestic disaster.PS: Ron Paul doesn't wear one ever.

(Me)So because it was not important in the past makes it alright that it is not important now? Or because it was important in the past it is important now? Maybe they learned from their mistake? Maybe they did not think of the lapel wearing until that time? None of the examples you gave were an attack against us by an outside force. How is the attack on 9/11 a domestic disaster, and not an attack on the U.S.? It is much different then the other examples you gave.That is only one side of the story as to what Obama said. Again, he is running to be the leader of the United States and what says that more to those Americans that fly their flags on July 4th, who is a very large voting constituency. Then most people should not go to church either under your philosophy. Since most do nothing the rest of the week with their as commanded by the Bible then they should just stay home.Maybe, even one day is better then no days. Focusing too much on the lapel pin is like focusing on the sapling in the forest. It is just one more thing taken together with my othe blogs.I would not vote for Ron Paul, either. I do not agree with the liberterian view point on a few issues. He is not worth writing about, because he is not even going to come close to winning, nor will he get that much press. The most he will do is pull some votes, but other then that he will be a blip on the sonar. Most college kids, majority of Ron Paul people, do not vote anyway.If Ron Paul were a factor and I disagreed with him about an issue like abortion, legalizing drugs (which I am against), the war (which I think may have had mistakes, but in the end is working out very well for Iraq and will in the end). I am against legalizing gay marriage (though I agree it should be at a state level, I have no problem with it being at the federal level, as it is a sin according to God.) I may add the lapel then.Why not an issue now? All things add up against the man.

(Him) I don't support Obama, or McCain for that matter...But I think it needs to be realized that Obama is going to be the next president whether we like it or not. I don't think that there will ever be a candidate that I can ever fully support…Unless someone invents a machine that makes people younger, allowing Ron Paul to run again. And I'll go ahead and state my opinions as well: Ron Paul is pro-life; he just feels it should be a state issue. Quote: “Isn’t killing a pregnant mother considered a double homicide?”I don't know if I have a firm opinion about legalizing drugs...But I don't feel that the Federal government has a right to tell people how to take care of themselves. The framers wouldn't stand for it. Not to mention we can't even keep drugs out of maximum security prisons…And couldn’t that money be better spent on something else?As for the war, the American people were lied too and the objective turned from finding the people who actually attacked us, to overthrowing Saddam, and invading a country that had done no harm to us. So I don't know what "working out very well for Iraq and in the end" looks like...But I'm pretty sure it will look almost just like the 38th parallel, and tons of money wasted.I'm pretty much over the lapel pin debate...I understood your points, just kinda chose not to care.Will I vote for Obama? No. Will I vote for McCain? No. Will Obama be President? Yes.I will however be voting for Ron Paul because he is the only one who wouldn't be lying when he said, "I swear to defend, protect, and uphold the Constitution of the United States." He already does that, and that’s really all we can ask for in a President.

(Me) My stating the abortion issue was not saying Ron Paul was for it, just giving my points about Obama. I do know he is pro-life. The legalizing drugs is a very interesting debate and have done it during my undergrad, and had to argue the positive side, which helped me to form my opinion even stronger. Just study "Needle Park" in Holland. When people are given free rain to choose sin without cause of hindrance they quite frequently choose sin. Is the health care system a mess, yes, but socialism nor free rain of drugs is going to help in my opinion. I personally believe that is why we have issues with a lot of things already. We do not enforce the laws today we have, and if we did then we would not have a lot of the issues. Yes, drugs are a problem in prisons, but as long as criminals are dead set on attaining something they usually can with enough resources. Same thing with guns. It is not the need for more laws, but the actual enforcement of those.The government, in using a Christian apriori guide, at least in conscience, is also designed to protect people from themselves in many ways, in the sense of sin, and we saw that in many laws that may have been rough and not necessarily right in their fashion, but were thinking they were sin in the Bible so should be in law. We have lost that as well. The war debate is a whole other monster in itself as well and were there again lies and mistakes, yes. But many of the blogs and new stories I have read from people who have been over there talking to the leaders have said that Iraqi is becoming more and more free and their finance system is gaining and they are starting to function. Why would Holiday Inn and Disney buy property otherwise? They are business people and follow where they think the money will be. Saddam was a tyrant and what he did to others was horrendous and he deserved to lose his reign. Why not in other countries then? Look how people respond when we do help and when we don't? continued

We did not go into many places we should of helped under a few Presidents. And this President has made some serious errors in many areas in my opinion as well, but I still would prefer him over Kerry or Gore anyday.If we do not stay there and make sure the transition and peace for the majority part is settled then we will have more terrorism here, which again is what I have been told by soldiers that were there and reading some intelligence (i use the term lightly here) reports. It will show we are afraid and they will take advantage of it. Why do we say we should have been in Somolia and not Iraqi when Saddam was killing in just as viscious ways and from over the years just as many people, his own people? Maybe I am wrong, just a question that comes to mind.As to my voting. I will not vote for Obama. The only way I would personally vote for McCain is if the V.P. of choice lined up and I looked to him running 4 years from now, or possibly being President if McCain died of old age, which is quite the possibility. What will I do otherwise? If between McCain w/ a liberal VP, Obama & Paul then I would vote for Paul if Keyes is not on the ticket.I commend you by voting your conscience and sticking to it. I know you are one that will vote and not just sit on the sideline and make comments and then make an excuse not to get to the polls.Will I be writing on McCain and the shortcomings there, yes. I just have been hearing about too many Emergent, liberal, and other Christians thinking about Obama. I cannot fathom why as Christians they can consider him.McCain does have a 5% lead right now. Question, as I may not remember correctly, but wasn't Reagan losing badly by polls in his first campaign? Not that McCain is Reagan, just a polling thing.

(Him) "Is the health care system a mess, yes, but socialism nor free rain of drugs is going to help in my opinion."I agree that socialism will not help the health care system...But on the issue of "the free rain of drugs" people are seriously mistaking the function of government if we think its job is to regulate bad habits. That’s my point and all I really have to say about it."If we do not stay there and make sure the transition and peace for the majority part is settled then we will have more terrorism here, which again is what I have been told by soldiers that were there and reading some intelligence (i use the term lightly here) reports."I don't know what soldiers you have been talking to and if that really is their opinion than that’s fine. But to say that there will be more terrorism here if we are not "over there" is absolutely ridiculous.
"Why not in other countries then? Look how people respond when we do help and when we don't?"Here is the reason why...I can't stand it when people say stuff like this..."Lets go invade all of the other nations in the world that are run by a brutal dictator and force them to become just like us!" Are you kidding me? The only reason needed to totally dub this statement as crazy is the constitution. We can't go to war without a declaration of war! And the President has no right to sign executive orders giving him the power to do so! With how much you read you should know that it is our being "over there" in the first place that causes the terrorism. Islam has been around for a long time and America has been a country for a long time...They didn't start blowing us up until we decided that it was cool for us to park our F-15s next to their holy sites. Read the 9/11 commission report and listen to Bin Laden’s reasons for attacking us. What would we as Americans say if China said, "Hey we are going to build military bases in California” We would be outraged. Finally, why do you think we didn't go into other places around the world under other presidents? Because those places didn't have anything to offer us, aka oil. We don't give a crap about Sudan or the rest of Africa for that matter.Very neo-con of you to think this way…

(Me) What do you mean the government does not make laws against what you call bad habits and I call sin? You do not think drug addicts would affect you and your life, your fooling yourself? Look at what gambling does to communities once it moves in. Again, did you look up Needle Park in Holland. They would intrude on our freedoms, because drug addicts steal, murder, rape, and do many other atrocities. Look at what happens with legalized drinking. I have friends die b/c of alcohol. Many atrocities in America have happened b/c people are under the influence. Every law has a moral implication to it. It is just whose morals? Why would I listen to Bin Laden's reasons for attacking him? That would be like listening to Hitler why we attacked him? Should we have left Hitler alone? Maybe as well we should have just let Pear Harbor alone as well and not retaliated? Are you against Afghanistan as well?Iraqi, for the majority is happy we are there. I have my doubts that you read the entire 9/11 report to ask me if I have read it. My guess is like every other person who complains you have taken what the "neo-liberals."Again, like most people who do not know how to debate, you take the questions as my opinion and not just for thought. And then you retaliate by calling names. Very mature debating. You should go on the road with the other liberals with your debate skills. You are on your way to becoming a great machine for them. When you move to name calling in debating you have lost. It is simplistic and lacks any form of intelligence.

I hear these cries about Sudan and all these other places. What are you doing about it? How have you tried to help? What are you doing? Again, complain, complain, but no action. Another liberal tactic. I want to complain and point the finger but not do anything but call names. How about locally? Do you help the people in our community in any fashion? Do you volunteer in any way or do anything at all? I am curious. Maybe you do. It would at least give you more substance for complaining. Yes, I did in a few ways. Free counseling, sitting on boards, working with the Youth Dept.'s and giving financially to organizations.

I have also talked to people on all sides of the isle and not just who agrees with me and what I think, and that seems to be all I hear.It seems to apply to all areas of life in people I debate like this. They complain about church, community and life but sit on the sidelines and do nothing. They like to gossip, but not take much action besides voting. That is barely anything at all, very easy. I am hoping this is not you. So, I await to see what you have done and what you are doing to help the areas you complain about become better. Or what you are doing in the community.